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Change of coordinates
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eastir



Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:18 am    Post subject: Change of coordinates Reply with quote

I think that's a bug. I've put coordinates to UTM and then i've saved the changes. All right.

After, i want to return to map Lat/long and no work. One and another one this option no work. The coordinate stay in UTM.

I don't have idea for this problem, and it's reason.

PD: Sorry for my bad english.
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kruch
Site Admin


Joined: 02 Jul 2006
Posts: 5676

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Works for me... Shocked
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guest



Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 5031

PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:00 pm    Post subject: Coordinates error? Reply with quote

I just started using TB 0.9.76 on SE M600i. Great work, thanks Kruch!
Strange thing (or maybe not?): Settings> Basic> Coordinates <Map Lat/Lon> and <Map Grid> doesn't change: always dd ff' ss", same values. It works instead with UTM and Geocaching (you have to scroll on map after applying new settings). Which kind of coordinates are those shown as 45,898792 7,8778457?
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kruch
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Joined: 02 Jul 2006
Posts: 5676

PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends on map calibration. What is your map projection ?
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guest



Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 5031

PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello kruch, thanks for replying. Honestly I have no idea of map calibration. I downloaded it from gm2tb.awonkenmind.de.
I would like to load in tb some points of interest such as alpine huts. Often you may find coordinates on internet but it's not so clear in which system they are expressed. Sometimes they appear in the way I mentioned, other times in other formats. I believe there's a great babel in this field as yet. Isn't there any process of international normalization? Which is the system most used with GPS? How can you easily translate from one system to another? Many thanks, A.
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Optimist



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kruch wrote:
Depends on map calibration. What is your map projection ?


Hi, all
I have installed Trekbuddy into Siemens SXG 75 and Nokia 6233. It works, but I can't understand: what geographical coordinates are shown in the top of the screen? If it is the geographical coordinates of the point, where I am standing, why these numbers are varying depending on the loaded map? Why the calibration of a map has effected to a value of real geographical coordinates? The maps were taken from a site http: // trekbuddy.org.ua/.
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kruch
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Joined: 02 Jul 2006
Posts: 5676

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the maps use different geodetic datum, the coordinates shown at the top will vary a bit.
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Optimist



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kruch wrote:
If the maps use different geodetic datum, the coordinates shown at the top will vary a bit.

Many thanks for your answer and the program.
But I do not understand, why you make these differences between coordinates on different maps.
Look at the experimental data, please:
At first - PDA FS Loox 560 with GPS and Visicom's Kiev (http: // visicom.ua/en/)
There are 7 satellites
The coordinates are N50 26 '49' E30 27 '14" .
The point on a map is on the necessary object precisely.
At second - SXG75
1)The built - in program VDO Dayton
No map,.
The coordinates N50 26 '49" E30 27 '14" .
2) Trekbuddy
Settings > Basic > Default datum WGS84
Coordinates > Map Lat/Lon
There are three maps from http: // trekbuddy.org.ua/
Kiev (64 507 904 Kb)
The coordinates are N50 26 '50" E30 27 '21"
The point on a map is on the necessary object precisely.
Kiev (35 887 616 Kb)
The coordinates are N50 26 '50" E30 27 '21"
The point on a map is not correct, real point have the coordinates N50 26 '49' E30 27 '14" .
The Ukraine
The coordinates are N50 26 '49' E30 27 '14" .
It is impossible to verify the point on a map, because scale is small.
Can you explain these results?
Also another a question, how Trekbuddy determines system of map coordinates?
With best regards, YuriY.
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kruch
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Joined: 02 Jul 2006
Posts: 5676

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The default datum setting (Settings > Basic > Default datum WGS84) is only used when calibration file does not provide info on map datum. MapCalibrator's .gmi is such case, for example.

Unfortunately I cannot download any map from the site you mention, because "foreign traffic from the file exceeds ..."; could you post here some Kiev map calibration file?
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Optimist



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kruch wrote:
The default datum setting (Settings > Basic > Default datum WGS84) is only used when calibration file does not provide info on map datum. MapCalibrator's .gmi is such case, for example.

Unfortunately I cannot download any map from the site you mention, because "foreign traffic from the file exceeds ..."; could you post here some Kiev map calibration file?


Usual blackmail Smile. It is necessary to visit some sponsors.sites.
I have sent files by e-mail. But first lines of them are similar:
------------------------------------------------------------------
1 ,Map Code,
Pulkovo 1942 (1),WGS 84, 0.0000, 0.0000,WGS 84
Reserved 1
Reserved 2
Magnetic Variation,,,E
Map Projection,Transverse Mercator,PolyCal,No,AutoCalOnly,No,BSBUseWPX,No
-------------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, this question is discussed on Russian forum about Trekbuddy for a long time:
http: // forum.allsiemens.com/viewtopic.php? t=44728
If we can give answer, it will be included in FAQ.
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Optimist



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Optimist wrote:

But I do not understand, why you make these differences between coordinates on different maps.

I have understood the problem ( http: // forum.allsiemens.com/viewtopic.php? t=44728*start=1365 ). It is caused by specific local mistakes of map calibrating in WGS 84, therefore I shall not write about it here. However I have got remark about the program. It's used by many people in different countries now, and, IMHO, it has the best prospects in future ( I do not know alternative program with the such limitations for programming (Java in phone) and which achieved of the such large functionality, respect for Kruch). However the program will be 'a black box' for a lot of the future users. The GPS systems are global, so they use the datum WGS 84. The all programs and the devices GPS show coordinates in this system. Only TB shows coordinates in the datum of a former paper map . But the usual user does not know this peculiar feature of TB, he never saw the paper original. He sees only, that TB gives numbers, which differ from all others, so they are wrong. Moreover, this peculiar feature complicates an exchange of objects coordinates between the users. IMHO, figures of coordinates on the screen should be always in datum WGS, and don't depend on a map. If it causes disputes, may be you will add such option in settings (datum to show coordinates).
By the way, who calibrates maps not only for itself, IMHO, can do little bit more job and count coordinates in WGS, especially if it is a usual projection transverse Mercator. It will take off the problem of number ambiguity on the screen, it also will speed up BT work, and it will raise accuracy, because it will be possible to use more complex algorithm with minimizing errors of recalculation (for example, the Russian maps http: // ikar.ufanet.ru/download.php? view.54 ) instead of the simplified recalculation with conversion factors (which often are incorrect http: // gis-lab.info/forum/viewtopic.php? t=212 ). I have done this job for map of Kiev and result is positive.
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Ranger



Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 6030

PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, but you are wrong.
The reason of having local datums support is that TB users can find a lot of already calibrated maps.
Why such maps are not calibrated in WGS84, ie many OziE maps ?
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Optimist



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, but you have not understood me precisely. OK, I try to explain my ideas now. For example, the computers fulfil their calculation in binary system only. If I am a programmer, I should know this system. and be able to use it. But if I am an economist and use the MS Excel, I want to receive the results of calculation in decimal system, not binary. So, the one, who calibrates a map, may use any datum, if only he has specified it correctly in the map-file, and this datum is in TB. He must have some knowledge about datum for this purpose. But the one, who will use this map (may be foreigner), is not obliged to know all possible variants of datum, which is different in many countries. He knows, that he uses the world system GPS and receives coordinates in this system i.e. WGS. Yes, may be on a stage of map calibrating, it's useful to receive coordinates in a map datum. ( However, IMHO, it's better to use WGS for this process too, because the systematic inaccuracy of this datum is less than 1 meter for Europe. So it is better to fulfil recalculations at once, in the prepared map-file even (about 20 numbers), than to force the program makes this process continuously during observation of an area. As you wish, though. It hasn't to influence on the coordinates which are shown on the display)
Therefore may be a compromise. Please, add option in the menu of settings:
- TB shows coordinates in the form which it's received from GPS receiver ( 'as is') i.e. in the datum WGS (default);
- TB shows coordinates after its recalculating ( the inside intermediate information) i.e. in a datum of the calibrated map, which is used at this moment.


Last edited by Optimist on Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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Ranger



Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 6030

PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What for peoples using ie km grids coordinates system ?
They would to have km coords only.
Or what for peoples having lat/long grids drawn on map ?
As I understand, you think that ie option in general settings to force WGS84 lat/long coords for display will solve all problems.
Maybe, a lot of apps allows such setting.
But it can start another problems like "I see that map is not calibrated well, because visible coords are not the same as on map picture"
Some basic knowledge about coords is necessary when you use maps in local systems. Or maybe you have a choice to use WGS84 maps only.
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Optimist



Joined: 21 Jun 2008
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ranger wrote:
What for peoples using ie km grids coordinates system ?
But it can start another problems like "I see that map is not calibrated well, because visible coords are not the same as on map picture"

Your reasons would be absolutely correct about ten years ago, when there were no alternatives for using of GPS devices likely the advanced compass jointly with paper maps. In this case the program should recalculate coordinates from WGS to datum of a map, and, perhaps, it is better to rectangular coordinates X-Y. But TB is the program of the next generation, it works with the electronic maps and a paper map is used (if it is necessary) only at the preparatory stage. For example, we can see a lot of maps at http: // trekbuddy.org.ua/ . But whence a user, which takes maps from there, can find out information about the source of electronic maps? And where he can get this original? And what is his goal? We must not compare the results of TB with the navigating programs of the first generation, which were a simple intermediate layer between GPS and paper map, but with such as Igo, Tom Tom, Navitel, Visicom etc. So before I have begun to use TB, I had used Igo, Visicom, GisRusa already . Therefore, when I have tried to use TB for SXG 75 and have seen, that lat/long differed from results of other programs, moreover they differed from another ones, which received directly from the receiver and depended on, whether I loaded a map of Ukraine or Kiev, I had a desire to reject TB. But I could not believe, that the program contains so obvious mistakes. Probably, Kruch has used the analogy with Ozi, where in my opinion, it's an atavism of first generation too. OK, I have understood the problem and made the decision for myself: the map should be transformed in WGS previously. Therefore my letters and our discussion have some information for the author. It's his right to make a decision.
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